Sharks Gameday: Thornton vs. Lecavalier

by Mike Chen on Jan 13, 2009 9:31 AM PST Comment 39 comments

Tampa Bay Lightning (13-19-10) at San Jose Sharks (31-5-5), 7:30 PST

On March 24, 1998, the Tampa Bay Lightning sent Bryan Marchment and David Shaw to San Jose for Andrei Nazarov and an upcoming 1st round pick. That pick was used for Vincent Lecavalier.That same draft, the Sharks picked Brad Stuart at #3 who was shipped off some years later for Joe Thornton.

So in theory, the Sharks could have had Lecavalier skating alongside Patrick Marleau instead of Joe Thornton. Lecavalier's more of a shooter than Thornton, though both are big guys with great reach and strong skating strides. And they both were in a weird commercial back in the early 2000s where they skated on a half pipe of ice.

Here are their career stats, along with their best season:

Lecavalier

752 games, 290 goals (80 PP, 12 SH), 350 assists (130 PP)

Best season: 2006-07 82 games, 52 goals, 56 assists

Thornton

795 games, 249 goals (89 PP, 3 SH), 556 assists (197 PP)

Best season: 2005-06 81 games, 29 goals, 96 assists

Which player would you rather have? I know there will be a San Jose bias because this is the Battle of California, not the Battle of Florida, but try to consider both players' skill sets as objectively as possible.

Poll

Joe Thornton or Vincent Lecavalier?

Vincent Lecavalier

25 votes

Joe Thornton

108 votes

133 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 39 comments

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Comments

Vinny, and it’s not really all that close until Jumbo Joe shows up for an extended postseason.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jan 13, 2009 9:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ughh

Holy lazy analysis Batman!

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jan 13, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno

Is part of this exercise to consider that Lecavalier makes $10M per year until infinity?

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 10:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

C’mon, Sharks, I’m counting on you. If you lose, then the Lightning… the LIGHTNING, of all teams, would go 3-for-California.

As for the vote, I actually went with Lecavalier, despite my BoC bias. Lecavalier is a shooter, while Thornton is a playmaker. To opposing teams, Lecavalier is a more serious threat because he is more likely to score. Thornton has an amazing ability to set guys up, and is in my opinion the best playmaker in the league. But Lecavalier is a more DIRECT threat than Thornton.

Then again, I also think the Kings’ #1 line on Thursday against the Wings should be Ivanans, Kopitar, and Gauthier (who if you don’t know, I absolutely despise. Just see my sig.)

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 10:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

And as J.P. said, Lecavalier has a Stanley Cup. Thornton has a few early playoff exits.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

By the way...

Vinny was only 4th on the team in scoring the year they won the Cup. Are Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, and Frederik Modin all better than Joe too? Not saying he hurt their cup chances, but he didn’t exactly put the team on his back the way Iginla did that year…

by mepex on Jan 13, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course Richards and Modin aren’t on the team anymore. St. Louis and Lecavalier I still think is one of the best 1-2 offensive duos in the league.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, I agree with your second statement, but my question remains- doesn’t that mean St. Louis, Richards and Modin are better than Joe too? If Vinny’s playoff performance trumps Joe’s clear regular season advantage, which you seem to advocate in a previous comment, isn’t this just a case where St. Louis > Vinny > Joe?

by mepex on Jan 13, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It is apples and oranges comparing St. Louis / Richards to Thornton / Lecavalier, really. Thornton / Lecavalier are more complete packages.

As such, I think Lecavalier was more important to Tampa than just scoring in that run. He may not have taken the leadership spotlight (which was undeniably Iginla) or the offensive spotlight (7 of Tampa’s 16 wins came from Brad Richards goals), but he was very present in that run. Some of his battles with Iginla were hockey at its finest.

Thornton just hasn’t been present in the playoffs yet, offensively or otherwise. Lord knows he’s had chances to step up, but he just hasn’t. I have hope he will. And he better. Otherwise it will be another good regular season for him and the Sharks.

by schtimpy27 on Jan 13, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Thornton playoff points/game, all time: .69

Vincent Lecavalier playoff points/game, all time: .73

If Vinny hadn’t fought Iginla and his team had lost, he would have the exact same reputation Thornton has.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jan 13, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and if my aunt had testicles she'd be my uncle.

Isn’t that the point? Vinny’s been Vinny in the playoffs and they won. Joe’s been someone else and the Sharks have lost.

I love Joe, and just in stats his playoffs aren’t horribly worse than other big time players, but come on, you’ve seen the games. He disappears on more than just the score sheet. That’s is what is so frustrating. And frustrating to him, I’m sure.

Until he can shed that monkey off his back, he’s gonna have that monkey on his back.

by schtimpy27 on Jan 13, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I hate using championships as a way to analyze who the better player is (for the baseball inclined, Eckstein > Bonds). You’re using a team to quantify an individual, and it just doesn’t make sense.

What if Joe has his “usual” playoff performance and the Sharks win the Stanley Cup this year? Is he suddenly better? Why? Nothing about him has changed except the team around him.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jan 13, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What if Joe has his "usual" playoff performance and the Sharks win the Stanley Cup this year? Is he suddenly better?

If he does his usual disappearing act, even if the Sharks win, then no, he’s not better. But really, do the Sharks win if he disappears again?

I don’t argue against the TEAM component at all! That is a way bigger issue than an individual component. Did Lecavalier carry them to the championship? No. (If any one player did, it could be argued that it was Richards, but that is even a stretch) But Tampa Bay won because everyone fired on all cylinders, including Vinny. Without that, there would be no Stanley Cup Champion Tampa Bay Lightning.

Joe Thornton has not fire on all cylinders in the playoffs. That is the point and the difference.

Look, I love Joe, and I wouldn’t necessarily want to see the Sharks without him. I don’t think this team would be the same without him. And I don’t think they’d be the same if they had Lecavalier instead. But in this hypothetical question posed at BOC, and after several years of disappointment, having a component to the whole that has demonstrated playoff caliber play in the playoffs is a pretty attractive thing.

And that accent. It’s a real turn on.

by schtimpy27 on Jan 13, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t really think he’s put on a disappearing act in the playoffs. I think other teams have focused on shutting him down as much as possible and he’s still done a good job of contributing. Especially considering the Sharks old strategy of, “Give Joe puck. Watch Joe do things.”

Anyways, I’m curious what’s going to happen this season when teams have to deal with Thornton, Marleau, Setoguchi, and Boyle all at once. It’s going to be tough to focus on him like teams used to do.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jan 13, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the LIGHTNING, of all teams, would go 3-for-California.

It’s always the teams you least suspect. Next time it will probably be the Denver Nuggets.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

As a Sharks fan...

I love Joe. But I’d take Vinny. The only hesitation is that his shoulder is a bit wonky, and his full recovery from surgery is yet to be determined. Otherwise, he is pretty easily my pick for the exact reasons already mentioned by J.P. and Kevin Y. And for being a skinny string bean, he’s actually a tough mofo when he wants to be.

Besides, Vinny is hotter. (Come on, you know I, of all people, had to go there) And he has a cooler accent.

by schtimpy27 on Jan 13, 2009 10:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Surprising no one is taking Joe. He’s averaging over a point per game for his career (1.01) vs. 0.85 for Vinny. And while his playoff dropoff is certainly more precipitous (he goes down to 0.69 points per game) it’s still pretty close to Vinny (0.73). Also, and I’ve taken plenty of shots at +/- in the past, Vinny is -73 for his career, Joe +118.

If you want to use 45 playoff games as a true measure of a player rather than 750+ regular season games, I guess that’s defensible, but what if Joe has a great playoffs this year? Does he just all of a sudden become a better player? No. He’s better now.

by mepex on Jan 13, 2009 10:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

If you want to use 45 playoff games as a true measure of a player rather than 750+ regular season games, I guess that’s defensible…

I don’t like using either measure, frankly. In fact, I think my entire opinion will be based on the last thirty votes of this reader poll.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s what’s known in the biz as “the crushing grip of reason.”

by mepex on Jan 13, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, Joe has more goals created in his career than Lecavalier despite being more of an assist man. Thornton controls games better, he’s better at faceoffs, I think he’s better defensively, plus he’s done all this fighting the perception that gay men can not be good at sports. I’d take Joe.

Haha, I’m watching Flyboys right now (hooray for days off!) and James Franco just shot the evil German pilot in the eyeball with a pistol while they were flying next to one another. I’m going to assume that’s not possible.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jan 13, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he’s better defensively, plus he’s done all this fighting the perception that gay men can not be good at sports.

Dustin Brown is also doing good work in this area. C’mon, he’s got a lisp!

by mepex on Jan 13, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How about the Lightning trade Lecavalier and St. Louis to the Kings for Calder, and the Sharks trade Thornton to the Kings for Zeiler? There, problem solved!

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 11:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

How about Thornton, Marleau and Lecavalier on the same line?

NHL Home Ice on XM reports that Tampa Bay has been talking with other teams about trading Lecavalier. Although his contract is the biggest issue, and certainly the Sharks can’t take on that kind of money, it would be interesting if he became a Shark….

by sfguy808 on Jan 13, 2009 11:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, there are strong reports that the Lightning and Canadiens have been having deep discussions, and a move could happen soon.

People look at the fact that Lecavalier makes $10MM each of the next seven seasons, and his front-loaded 11-yr/85MM contract extension goes into effect this upcoming season. They think it’s going to be hard for the Lightning to move him, unless the other team (Canadiens) is willing to dump a lot of players… and that’s not likely to happen. The Canadiens have only 4 NHL forwards under contract for next season: both Andrei and Sergei Kostitsyn, Georges Laraque, and Maxim Lapierre. They already have $21.8MM against the cap for next year, and only have committed to 10 NHL players (non-NHL-ready prospects excluded), and nobody think they should make it $31.8MM on 12 players. And remember, they still have Koivu, Tanguay, and Kovalev (UFAs) after the season, and all are probably gonna be another $15MM. They still have Latendresse (RFA), and he’ll probably get $1.5MM. And if they want to re-sign an aging Robert Lang, that’s another $3MM at least.

But that only puts them at $41MM committed to 17 players, with both Price and Halak with one more year. And that doesn’t even consider what they’d have to give up to get him, which would clear cap space. Getting Lecavalier would bring them to no more than $51MM, and plenty of cap space to replenish what it would cost to get him. They could easily get a couple cheap players at $1.5MM each and still be safely under the cap maximum, which isn’t expected to change drastically, if at all, this next season.

In other words, Lecavalier is probably gonna be a Canadien before too long. (For the record, he is Canadian. He was born in L’Île-Bizard, Quebec, which has since merged with the city of Montréal.)

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 11:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

America's Phallic Symbol

The Sharks had better beat the lightning to preserve our home dominance as well as prevent what would be the worst state rape in history. The thought of Florida raping California makes my ass hurt already.

by TheRobberBaron on Jan 13, 2009 12:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The thought of Florida raping California makes my ass hurt already.

You do really have to be careful of that panhandle.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m with you there … and I’m not really into having my ass hurt for any reason.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?

by ang6666 on Jan 13, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Related: David Johnson at HockeyAnalysis takes a look at Vinny Lecavalier today: Is he overrated?

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 12:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Dear god, Sharks

You’re killing that Lightning team — have you no mercy?

I guess we needn’t worry about that TB sweep.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 13, 2009 9:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

and still over 9 minutes left of the 3rd … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?

by ang6666 on Jan 13, 2009 9:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Somebody had to show you SoCal guys how to deal with Tampa.

It takes a big man to cry and it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. -Jamie Baker

by Lurker Shark on Jan 13, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not so bad that the Kings lost to the Lightning. That wasn’t a surprise. It was the Ducks losing to the Lightning that disgraced all the California teams…

Although, if the Ducks had won, then it would’ve been the Kings fault we didn’t get a fancy rape graphic. And that’s so much worse.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you want a winning tradition in L.A., I think you’re going to have to start letting the Kings take some blame for losing to bottom teams, too.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jan 14, 2009 7:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t mind them losing to the bottom teams in the Eastern Conference. It’s the teams like the Blues and Stars, in the Western Conference, that piss me off more.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 14, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You may already be aware of this, but just so you know the quote in your signature was uttered (originally) by Jack Handey in Deep Thoughts

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

People who save up for a rainy day are like milk. And milk goes good with cookies, so you should have those people over for cookies.

by brokenyard on Jan 14, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

First of all, I’m gonna try a double-quote here, so I’m sorry if it doesn’t work out.

You may already be aware of this, but just so you know the quote in your signature was uttered (originally) by Jack Handey in Deep Thoughts

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

You may already be aware of this, but just so you know the quote in my signature was uttered by Kevin Y in Staples Center on Monday.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 14, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This is in response to the string of replies to my comment from up at top. I’m just posting it here so it’s not like completely buried.

Comparing Lecavalier’s success with the Lightning to Thornton’s success with the Sharks, as well as their individual abilities, is a tough topic because they play in different conferences. They don’t play the same opponents the same amount of times, so it’s hard to judge their stats for what they are.

I really don’t know which I’d rather have, because frankly the Kings ain’t getting either any time soon. So it comes down to which one I’d least like to face. And personally, that person is actually Joe Thornton. I don’t know why; I’d rather have Lecavalier on my team, but I’d also rather face him than Thornton. It’s very contradictory. Maybe it’s because of what the Kings’ needs are. Right now, they need a better offense, and I think Lecavalier can provide that more than Thornton can. The Kings’ defensive weakness is their inability to prevent plays from breaking out, and Thornton has an amazing offensive awareness and sees the ice really well.

Fuck you, Denis Gauthier

by Kevin Y on Jan 13, 2009 10:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

state rape averted, you can always count on those sharks to pick up the slack of the other cali teams

by sharks on Jan 14, 2009 5:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I bet Thornton somehow sensed that people were questioning his greatness, and decided to prove them wrong. He probably would have easily gotten the hat trick, except McLellan decided that both Semenov and Murray needed to score a goal. That’s the only plausible reason I can come up with to explain Semenov’s 2:39 of ice time on the powerplay.

by mymclife on Jan 14, 2009 9:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs