Pronger No Longer: Captain Elbows gets traded for Loops again?!
by Earl Sleek on Jun 27, 2009 11:08 AM PDT
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Captain Elbows is off to Prongerdelphia. Wow.
So amidst all the excitement of the most boring television ever in yesterday's entry draft, GM "Barstool" Murray made a huge splash by sending Chris Pronger to Philadelphia in what essentially looks to be a reversal of the trade three years ago -- Joffrey Lupul, a young d-man prospect, two first round picks, and a throw-in pick. How Murray was able to squeeze out that nearly-identical payout from Philly's GM is astounding -- for sure Pronger is a world-class talent and a difference maker and deserves a rich trade reward, but Philly isn't trading for four years of a locked-up Pronger like Burke was. We'll have to see how the other pieces fall together (namely, how much will Scott sign for, and what's up then with Rob, Frenchie, and Marchant?), but already there's some good news. Teemu, who seemingly always makes his career moves based on Scotty, has now committed to play out his contract next season -- at a cool $2M, that's fantastic. Here's how the cap math works as of now, courtesy of nhlnumbers.
I think this one's up to date now. Still needs some Niedermayer, though.
There's of course a ton to say about the Anaheim career of Chris Pronger -- or really, the three-year era where Ducks fans were spoiled with the talents of both Pronger and Niedermayer -- but I'm not going to inundate this Saturday post with all of that. This week, I'll be putting a few posts together, though, including a hard look at the comparative stats of Niedermayer and Pronger over the past three seasons. Even after all this time of seeing both all-stars exchange shifts, it's still a difficult question to answer: who was better?
Also, there's the matter of the return of Joffrey Lupul, who now joins the likes of Travis Green, Fredrik Olausson, Jeff Friesen, and Stu Grimson as two-time Ducks -- fortunately Ducks fans know very well what to expect in Loops, though it will be interesting to see how he's developed the last couple of years. A wicked shot, a goofy grin, and not a lot of backchecking as I recall -- it may become more imperative that the Ducks re-sign Todd Marchant, as by the end of Lupul's Anaheim career that seemed to be a good fit for the winger; Marchant was Joffrey's center for his infamous 4-goal playoff game.
As for the blueline, it remains to be seen what role Sbisa will play, and I'll need to see some dollar estimates soon for the likes of Niedermayer and Wisniewski. With the loss of Pronger, the blueline looks to migrate more to the "only one hall-of-famer" allocation of minutes that we probably should get re-acquainted with. For the first time in a while, I'll know definitively who Anaheim's top defensive pair is next season -- should be a little surreal. Also, Pronger was really useful in stabilizing Ryan Whitney's defensive shortcomings, and I'm not sure who will be filling that role -- more to come here I'm sure.
Overall, I'm in love with this trade -- we had to know that the Niedermayer + Pronger era was over -- it could have been extended another season, perhaps, but only if Scotty and Giguere were in charitable spirits, and that wouldn't have served the long-term franchise very well. The Ducks got to use and capitalize on three of Pronger's best years, and while it's possible that Murray has sent the better defender off to the eastern conference, I for sure can say this: Chris Pronger is an awesome player, but for sure I'd rather have Scott Niedermayer + Joffrey Lupul + Luca Sbisa + 2 first round picks. For fucking damn sure.
So kudos, Barstool Bob. And welcome back, Joffrey. And welcome back, Teemu. And welcome back, Scott (did you bring Robby with you?). And thanks a lot, Pronger -- I've spent a ton of ink defending you, but you dominated on the ice, upset the President Sharks, and won our first taste at Stanley. For sure I'll miss you, dude.
More to come. Go Ducks.
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Farwell, Pronger
I’ll miss booing you, but that’s about it. Have fun in Philly!
resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"
So my Red Wings buddy tried giving me this theory that having Pronger leave will help opponent fans realize how much a douchebag Corey Perry is — he really despises the guy.
I dunno — I suspect opponent fans already know that. Either that or they don’t play us enough that it will properly register anyway.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
I certainly knew that, but then I’m inclined not to give a Duck the benefit of the doubt as a general rule.
I agree, though, the Ducks win coming and going. Just look at it this way.
Give Up: Three years of (douchey, lazy, overpaid, sometimes talented) Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, Dinglefritz or whatever his name is, bunch of picks
Get: Three years of (affordable, mostly elite, kinda dirty) Chris Pronger, Luca Sbisa, bunch of other picks, Stanley Cup
You’d win even if the only thing in the “Get” column was the last item, really.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
That reminds me. I did forget to mention two things, briefly in this post —
1. Started brainstorming a bit about what to nickname this Sbisa kid — early suggestions are “Leaning Tower” and “Spezio”, but I haven’t seen him play very much. Suggestions are welcome.
2. The one thing that the Ducks have to avoid is the post-Pronger curse that devastates NHL cities once Capt. Elbows takes off:
Edmonton — missed the playoffs three straight years post-Pronger
St. Louis — missed the playoffs three straight years post-Pronger
Hartford — well, they didn’t even make it to year three post-Pronger
Scary, scary territory.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
I like Leaning Tower of Sbisa. I dunno, I’m not a Lethbridge fan, so I couldn’t tell you any creative junior names.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
I resorted to the ever creative “You suck, Sbisa” in the Lethbridge/Saskatoon series, but that’s because the most hate was directed towards Kyle Beach. Sbisa obviously didn’t suck, though… he was far and away the best player in a series that included Zack Boychuk, Kyle Beach, and Braden Holtby. It made me hate Philly that much more that they sent a guy so above playing in the WHL back in time to give Saskatoon a ridiculously difficult 7th place opponent as a reward for finally winning their freaking division.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Eh, I still don’t see it as being a necessary move. I’d have tried to get Pronger’s name on an extension and let Niedermayer go instead. Maybe thats blasphemous or whatever, but I have this grudging respect for Pronger, that has grown steadily over the last couple years. Plus, theres no one else I’d hate to see on the other team more.
It was certainly a good return for the trade, I just don’t see why the trade had to happen in the first place, or why it necessarily had to be him on the way out. Including Pronger gets you to what, 44.35M on the cap, needing to sign another regular Dman and 1-2 regular forwards. Totally doable all for well under 50M (my understanding of what Anaheim wants for an internal cap), and thats carrying a 6M backup goalie.
Also, where is this 50M salary cap number coming from anyways? Word is that the Wings’ playoff run this year basically paid for the teams payroll for the year, everything else is gravy. Obviously the Ducks didn’t have as many playoff games, but they had a very good 2 round run, and they’re a fairly successful team? Do they just really have that hard of a time filling the arena that revenues are a significant issue?
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
Based on what I pay for my Row B seats, I suspect it’s a pricing issue. My ticket should be in the triple-digit dollar range, and it’s creeping that way, but not there yet.
We’ve always been middling, and as a paying fan, I don’t mind that. Burke got to overstep those bounds for two years, and sure, a cup gets you that right, but for sure at some point it had to come back to a more stable point. Besides, I haven’t been paying attention. Has our owner gone to jail yet?
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Ah, I forgot about the Samueli thing. I guess not everyone can build an honest fortune by making pizzas. The refs/owners cartoon is one of my favorites still.
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
Well, Pronger’s at the age where he’s more likely to start trending downward than not, and with one year left on the contract, maybe Barstool felt it better to cash out now than wind up negotiating a contract that he’d regret a couple of years down the road. And really, Sbisa’s someone you can rebuild on the fly with, because you can put him in an NHL lineup now, and expect him to get better, because he’s only 19. I think it’s good asset management, personally, and I don’t believe it cripples the Ducks’ chances of making the playoffs and winning a round.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)
I don’t think it keeps them out of the playoffs or from being able to win a round. Without Pronger, the Ducks are still a pretty good team. But if you’re choosing between Niedermayer for as long as he wants to keep signing one year deals (and it likely won’t be too much longer) and Pronger for a few years, I choose Pronger. I think he gives the better shot to go far in the playoffs. If Pronger had been extended for 4 years, I have a hard time seeing that as a move you might come to regret. Certainly possible, maybe he breaks his neck the very next game, but I highly doubt it. It was a good return, I just don’t buy the line that it was a necessary move.
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
Oh, also, from this thread:
http://www.battleofcali.com/2009/5/22/884116/its-ok-when-kronwall-does-it
What if Pronger went to Philly? Maybe the resulting tear in the universe would get rid of Pittsburgh too…
How prophetic! He went to Philly, but unfortunately, it was a little too late for the resulting tear in the universe to salvage the Cup Finals for me.
Also, why are the comments closed for that fanpost? Do fanposts expire after a certain time? Or do you guys actually close it or what?
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
I love this trade as a Ducks fan. I can’t help but feel like we robbed them some though. What a great feeling that is to have. Thanks Bob Murray for that.
I think the Ducks will be dangerous next season. If we could somehow get Beauchemin re-signed, that would be amazing for the Ducks. Although I have a feeling his asking price might be more than we can afford.
On a side note, I can’t help but think Getzlaf is the #5 forward in the league. If he were on a team back East, you can bet your bottom dollar he would be in the league MVP talks with the way he plays. Having said that, if him being out West and on the Ducks keeps him from getting that talk, then so be it. I’d rather have him on the Ducks because he is as good a forward in the game all around as you will find. I love that guy.
I can’t wait for September.
I love the deal, and the only current Ducks jersey I own has Pronger on it.
Lupul and 3 first round picks. Sorry Philly. Prongs will make you better, but I don’t think your sitting where ANA was in 06 in terms of depth. Giggy > Emery (proven) and when you look at DEF I think JBO needed to be added to compare to Scott & Pronger. We’ll see how it works out, maybe Phily is not done yet.
This Ducks roster + Lupul is comperable to the 06 team, but I feel our top line is way better, and Wiz + Cotton Gin are better than Scott had in 06. Plus we might add more? No AndyMac hurts though.
I love this deal because we still compete, and we get better moving forward.
So long elbows, i’ll miss ya.
Depth?
In which area specifically do the Flyers lack depth? Before the trade they were insanely deep at forward: Richards, Carter, Gagne, Knuble, Briere, Hartnell, Lupul, Giroux. (If you don’t know about Claude Giroux yet, you will by this time next year.) The Flyers are trying to re-sign Knuble this summer. Plus, we have a couple of highly-rated forward prospects in James van Riemsdyk and Patrick Maroon.
Defensively, we’ve got Timonen, Pronger, Coburn, Carle (both of whom will open some eyes next year as well), Ryan Parent (solid) and Randy Jones (meh). Andrew Alberts may be in the mix as well. Plus, we have a couple of highly-rated defensive prospects in Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, and Oskars Bartulis.
Giguere is better than Emery, no doubt. We’re still working on goaltending, as well as a few other holes in the lineup, but we’re getting there.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I’m not taking anything away from Philly with that comment, Pronger makes you a deep playoff team for sure. I just think your goalie is a little weak and maybe your one Dman away. But we’ll see what happens to DET and PITTS this off-season. If they get weaker, it’s all you. CGY might be moving up though. Either way Philly has always been the east coast team I prefer to watch, this trade just makes that more so.
You guys will love Pronger, every one else in the east will hate him.
Flyers Fan Here...
It’s only fitting that we make a big deal with you guys, as Philly and Anaheim are almost like “sister” teams. (I don’t mean that in a fey way, of course. I mean “sister” as in Sister Cities.)
The general consensus in Philadelphia is that we’re happy to have Pronger but we feel we gave up too much. Lupul and the draft picks should have been sufficient.
If Luca Sbisa bulks up some, he is going to be a very good player in this league. He’s speedy, talented, versatile (he played a game or two at forward for us) and he jumps into the play well. Giving him up is what really hurts.
I really hoped that Joffrey Lupul would pan out in Philadelphia, especially after we traded Joni Pitkanen (who was not very good at the time) to get him. I defended him time after time last season and earlier this season. But I had my fill by the end of the year, as we all did. It’s unfair for me to say since I don’t know the guy, but Lupul’s attitude could use a serious adjustment.
From what I’ve seen of Joffrey in interviews, he seems a little too laid-back for his own good. He comes across as a “Yo, brah, let’s chill out with some brews, watch some football, go out and score some hot chicks” kind of guy. There’s nothing wrong with this per se, because there are plenty of people out there like this. But when people pair this aspect of his personality with his inconsistent play, AND when they look at the salary cap and see that he’s making $4.25 million, it doesn’t look good.
Joffrey’s attitude may improve with the Ducks. He certainly seems happy to be going back, and I hope for his sake that he gets his act together. And I certainly hope that Sbisa pans out as well. He played here for half of a season and everyone practically fell in love with the guy. That should tell you something, especially coming from Philly where we can be a little critical. (Just a little, mind you, unless you’re Sidney Crosby.)
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I'm a philly transplant living in LA
So I have watched plenty of both teams this past year. The basic feeling we had this year, is that we could very easily have been in the finals, funny as that sounds. The problem for the team all year was inconsistency, and Elbows is just the type of player who can bring that missing ingredient to the team. I also think he will enjoy playing for Philly.
Everyone agrees that this is a good deal for Anaheim. Sbisa is incredibly young and came in and played way beyond his years. He has a good deal of offensive panache, and he’s resilient, as teams really went after him (KILL THE ROOKIE) during a particularly rough stretch in the first half of the season. Unfortunately he did take a lot of penalties, and this probably lead to his demotion, but no matter how you slice it, this is an absolute steal for the Ducks.
I like Lupes more than other people. He was pretty much on the trade block the entire season, and he still managed to produce solid numbers, as well as a number of clutch goals, including the game winner in game 7 of the Washington series season before last. For most of the season, he was part of Philly’s best line with Carter and Hartnell.
Lupes is a good agitator, and should slot back into the lineup and produce some solid numbers, having put up 45 and 50 points in the last 2 seasons, including 25 goals this past year. While people may complain about his inconsistency, I think that’s really overstated. He was +2 this past year, and was solid in both directions. I don’t think people appreciate the role he had to play, considering Carter’s breakout year and high shot percentage, along with Hartnell’s frequent deep forechecking and propensity for mid zone poaching. Lupes had to pick his spots and I think he was far more effective than people in Philly wanted to give him credit for being. He’s also a guy who was well liked in the lockerroom, and will do well with the young guys.
I think this is a trade that benefits both teams.
To me, that inconsistency sounds fine. Let’s be honest, this last playoff run has shown that the Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry line may pan out to be the best singular line in hockey. As long as he can back them up, we’ll be hard to beat. And maybe Anaheim’s system is better for him. I mean, he did have his best season for us before.
Sbisa sounds like a good guy that we could tool into our team. Maybe start him with Beauchemin if we resign him. Sounds exciting and only 19? Kid’s younger than me!
UNRELATED: Handel is the most overrated composer ever...
Very good point — while Loops may not be worth his Penner money, the Ducks went into this offseason with pretty much no top-line needs. Lupul just needs to be what he was when he left Anaheim — a second or third line scoring threat.
Seems like a decent fit to me, but we shall see — still plenty of summer left.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Why they had the trade him to east??? I have nightmares of him killing everyone in my team…
Как же так может быть?
Trading Pronger to the eastern conference does two things:
1. Saves Ducks fans from having Pronger-related nightmares.
2. Pisses off Poppa Burke.
I approve of both reasons.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
I’m really interested to see how it goes for him playing against a bunch of superstars who are used to being “defended” in rather soft manners. I’m going to laugh my ass off the first time Crosby tries hanging out near the net for some easy goals, and Pronger picks him up, breaks him in half, and starts chewing off on his leg like a drumstick. The East could certainly use an injection of good responsible hockey. I hope Pronger gives it to em.
http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.
And hey, why was Pronger suspended for that hit on Holmstrom again? That still seems legit to me.
The West Coast is the Best Coast.
The suspensions are Philly’s problem now.
That is one thing about Pronger/Prongers Rep. I will not miss.
They still have Perry. That’s enough in the minds of many to seal the goony deal.
resident cartoonist @couchtarts.blogspot.com. Endorsed by Mr. K on "CINCODEMYOOR!!!!!"
“goony deal”..i like that hehe
I wanna throw up on your new shoes
by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 29, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
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