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Pronger No Longer: A 3-Year Look at Project Norris

Niedprong1_medium
Who was the better Duck player over the past three years, Scott or Chris? You decide.

In the aftermath of the draft-day trade that sent Chris Pronger over to the Philadelphia Flyers (see some Broad Street reaction over here) plus the imminent signing of Captain Scott Niedermayer, I thought I'd take a statsy look back over the past three years where Ducks fans have been spoiled by the multi-complementary talents of Niedermayer and Pronger on the blueline.  It's largely an academic pursuit, as again, given the choice I'd rather have Niedermayer + Lupul + Sbisa + 2 firsts than Pronger by himself, but still I think it's the type of question that can help us better appreciate Project Norris -- looking back over the past three seasons and postseasons, who has been the better player: Niedermayer or Pronger?

It's a question that may have no particularly strong answer, as both have been fantastic stabilizing talents on Anaheim's roster throughout their shared tenure, and there's always complications regarding how their minutes were allocated -- as a general rule they played apart, except for power play and 3-on-5 situations (or Stanley Cup Finals series).  On some nights Niedermayer had the tough assignments, on others Pronger had to do the heavy lifting, and on many other nights it was a blended coverage.  At any rate, let's get started with this comparison by taking a glance at the counting totals:

Niedprong_basicstats_medium
Here's the basic counting stats, including playoffs. Not much to pick based on points-per-game.

Not a whole lot to note here -- Scotty played fewer games and was actually a minus player over the duration, though some of that can be attributed to Carlyle's "breaking in" new defensemen under Scotty's wing -- Pronger generally had more veteran partners.  In terms of points-per-game, there's hardly any separation between the two.  Though they contrast a good deal in terms of style, that contrast is not apparent on the scoresheet.

After the jump, some more situational data-delving and discussion.

Star-divide

Below is a situational breakdown of the three-year stretch, and really -- this could really be considered the "meat" of this post's analysis.  It shows how each player did in three types of situations: even-strength, on the power play, and shorthanded, and converts all results into a per-60-minutes scoring rate.  This table includes regular season and playoffs from the past three seasons -- 249 games for Niedermayer and 258 for Pronger. 

Niedprong_situational_medium
Pronger has the outscoring results edge in all situations, though Scotty does have a dozen more even-strength points.

For me, the last column is the one that matters the most, as it measures situational outscoring, and you can see that in the situations where they played apart Pronger comes out ahead.  Niedermayer does seem to produce points better at even-strength, but even with the additional offense he more or less plays 5-on-5 as a wash (which still isn't bad when you're facing you're share of Thorntons and Datsyuks).  The penalty-killing was pretty close, though, and I was surprised to see Niedermayer score more power play goals than Pronger, considering Scotty can't really fire the puck.

I guess one thing that needs to be considered, though, is how each player did benefit from alternating with the other -- neither had to carry the entire load with the other player in the lineup.  For my last bit of data-slicing, then, I took a look at how the Anaheim team performed when one of the two All-Stars was out of the lineup.  Pronger had two injury stretches and three suspensions over the three years, 28 games total, and Niedermayer had one injury stretch and 34 games of mock retirement, 37 in all.  Here's a look at how the team did in their absences:

Niedprong_records_medium
Playoff overtime losses get put in the "O" column, btw.

Now on the surface, it seems that the Ducks did much better without Pronger than without Niedermayer, but there's tons of caveats to be made here.  For one, most of the "Pronger only" time occurred at the start of the 2007-08 season, when the Ducks all had horrible cup hangover plus a godawful travel schedule plus a slew of injuries (Mark Mowers, anybody?) -- the whole team sucked during that stretch.  Of course, a good chunk of the "Niedermayer only" time happened with multiple injuries, also -- one was without Pronger + Giguere + Bryzgalov + Beauchemin + Marchant, and the StompGate suspension occurred without Corey Perry in the lineup.

Even with the limited and asterisked data, though, I think it is worth noting how the Ducks as a whole played better without Pronger than without Niedermayer -- certainly the ability to win Prongerless was huge in winning Anaheim's Stanley Cup, and has bigger implications going forward.  And of course, it's awesome to look at the record of the team when both were available -- it was an awesome era that's come to a close, that's for sure (though arguably it was in decline -- the Ducks barely scratched out 8th seed last season and both Niedermayer and Pronger played every game).

Now normally at this point in the post I'd look over the data and come to a conclusion, but even after three years of watching I'm not really sure.  As I've been prone to point out, Scott's a defenseman who dazzles the eyes, while Chris is a defenseman who dazzles the spreadsheets.  So for the first time in my blog career, I'm going to turn it over to an internet poll.  Who was better for the Ducks over the three-year stretch?  On the one hand you have Pronger the outscorer: in all situations, Pronger was on the ice for + 379 GF - 267 GA = + 112 GD, while Niedermayer was on the ice for + 352 GF - 303 GA = + 49 GD.  On the other hand you have Niedermayer the captain, without whom the Ducks had trouble conjuring up wins.

So have at it -- in the poll and in the comments.  Remember, there's no wrong answer; the real point here is that we Ducks fans have been some lucky sons-of-bitches. 

* * *

As a closing note, blog chairman James Mirtle is putting together 30 teams' worth of UFA coverage, and asked us all to fill in the template below (don't know if you know about this Rudy, I have barely been following myself).  Here's what I sent in for the Ducks angle, though it's tough to speculate too much before knowing Niedermayer's salary.

Pending UFAs: D Scott Niedermayer, D Francois Beauchemin, F Todd Marchant, F Rob Niedermayer
Pending RFAs: F Erik Christensen, D James Wiesniewski, D Brett Festerling
Salary cap space: haven't paid attention to the ceiling, but the Ducks have about $38M on the books pre-Niedemayers.
Projected budget: Middling. I don't anticipate being anywhere near the ceiling any more.
Key needs: (1) Scott needs to sign. (2) Another blueliner needs to sign (Beauchemin or equivalent). (3) A huge undoing for the Ducks last spring was production outside of the Getzlaf line, so I think a quality 2nd-line center makes some sense. Already Lupul helps there. (4) Sign either Todd Marchant, Sammy Pahlsson, or some comparable.
Potential targets: Scott Niedermayer, Rob Niedermayer, Todd Marchant, Mystery Defenseman.
What our rivals want: Kings want a playoff appearance, Sharks want a playoff run, Coyotes want a local owner, and Stars want their old Marty Turco back.
Go Ducks.

Poll
Who was the better player for the Anaheim Ducks from 2006-07 through 2008-09?
Scott Niedermayer
106 votes
Chris Pronger
66 votes

172 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 30 comments |

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I actually just posted my thoughts over at Sacrifice the Body on the same subject. Nothing much there that I haven’t already said here, except that over there I picked at the money angle a bit more. Saying you don’t want to pay 12M for two of the best dmen in the game and then paying 4.25 for Lupul is a little silly, I think. Of course, paying 6M for Niedermayer when he’s on a year to year basis is kind of silly too. Selanne is in the same boat, but you don’t see him getting 6M/yr.

I’m taking Pronger in the poll, cause I think he should’ve won the Conn Smythe in 2007 (if he hadn’t been getting suspended, I think he would’ve), and cause he’s just a general beast. I don’t like the guy, but damn if my respect hasn’t grown immensely since the lockout. He should have had back to back Conn Smythes on different teams, and O’Brien will back me up on that one.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Saying you don’t want to pay 12M for two of the best dmen in the game and then paying 4.25 for Lupul is a little silly, I think.

It’s a clean $13M combined, and I think for the past three years, it’s pretty much been the best money committed under Burke’s plan. But it’s one more year, tops, where the dollars are predictable at least, and I don’t mind moving on at this stage. As I said, we are talking about a team who barely scratched out 8th seed with Pronger + Niedermayer playing 82 games apiece. I don’t mind moving on and allocating money towards 2nd-line scoring depth where the Ducks suffered last spring — I think it beats trying to “keep the band together” until it hurts (see Tampa Bay).

Loops will be overpaid, sure, but I’m willing to give him a shot before I pre-grudge him. Frankly, I’m a tad more irked at Whitney’s money than Lupul’s, but neither seems overly outlandish, and there’s enough offsetting bargains on the Ducks that it should iron out.

He should have had back to back Conn Smythes on different teams, and O’Brien will back me up on that one.

Oh, I’m in the same boat. Cam Ward can suck it — I hate the guy because he severely cheapened Giguere’s goaltending Smythe by not being heads-and-shoulders above the competition. And in terms of 2007, Pronger murdered Niedermayer in terms of outscoring — Scott was actually on the ice for more GA than GF that spring.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s a clean $13M combined, and I think for the past three years, it’s pretty much been the best money committed under Burke’s plan. But it’s one more year, tops, where the dollars are predictable at least, and I don’t mind moving on at this stage.

Oh, absolutely it was good money to spend. Can’t argue with a Stanley Cup. It wasn’t an arrangement that could’ve gone on forever, but given that Niedermayer probably retires after this year and getting the chance for the 2010 Olympics, and that he would be off the books at the same time a new deal for Pronger could go into effect, I think it was totally doable for this year, and then after this year, the reins are fully in Pronger’s hands. Besides, its really only an issue if Niedermayer is getting paid several million per year, and there’s no way he should be getting that kind of money, considering how patient Anaheim has been with his year to year retirement business. Keep Pronger, tell Niedermayer to play for less than 6M, and there you go.

As I said, we are talking about a team who barely scratched out 8th seed with Pronger + Niedermayer playing 82 games apiece. I don’t mind moving on and allocating money towards 2nd-line scoring depth where the Ducks suffered last spring — I think it beats trying to "keep the band together" until it hurts (see Tampa Bay).

I’d say this year was somewhat of an aberration. The Ducks are better than an 8th place team, and they proved it in the playoffs.

I think the best way to stock the 2nd line would’ve been using the RFA market. RFA is a great way for a team with some space to reload without having to give up many of their own assets. Everything that was included in the discussions here about the Kings for RFA targets this summer could just as easily apply to the Wings. Go sign an RFA like Clowe, Hudler, Kessel, etc. Given that all three of those teams are in cap strapped situations, throw them 3.5M dollars, you give up a draft pick, just add water (or ice), and you have instant secondary scoring. You might even be able to get two of them, depending how you fill the rest of the roster, and stay below 50M. Pronger + an RFA or two is a better choice than Niedermayer + Lupul, I think.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but you still left out Leaning Tower and the two firsts — that’s huge.

I don’t want to confuse things too much — the gist of this post was strictly a look backwards, not a question of “who will be better next year?”, but certainly we can talk futures. Bottom line for me: Niedermayer or Pronger — with either of them, it has to be regarded as a “potentially final year”, and they’re close enough on the spreadsheets that I can’t complain about moving the one with the wildly higher fetching price. As Barstool Murray stated (loose quote), the Pronger trade was the right move to make no matter what Scott Niedermayer decided to do. Thanks again, Philly.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing about the firsts is that they’re going to take about 2 years each to make the big club, maybe more depending on how good of depth players the Ducks have in that time. Those are gains that won’t be made until 2012-ish. They’re certainly important, but considering the youth on much of the Ducks team, I don’t know that its as important as it would be for a much older team. There’s no reason the Ducks couldn’t win a Cup in the next 3 years, before those draft picks would even be on the big club. Get your secondary scoring from somewhere else, ride that top line for 10 more years with a solid defense and goaltending, and let the hardware pile up.

Admittedly, I know next to nothing about Sbisa. Hey, maybe he’s the next Pronger and I’m the idiot. I do tend to devalue draft picks outside the top 5-10 for teams that are legit contenders though, because of the time it takes to get them into the NHL.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, but if Philly completely implodes (which is totally possible) and you actually get a good pick for it, the deal gets to be much better.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I have zero expectations from the first-round picks in the next couple of years, but that doesn’t mean that they’re valueless. Getzlaf and Perry didn’t have an impact until 2006 despite being drafted in ‘03; Ryan had to wait until late 2008 — I’m fine with all of that.

We are currently enjoying the fruits of not getting rid of picks from 2003 and 2005 — I don’t know why I should stop caring about talent in the cupboard or picks in the first round, especially in a salary cap world.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just want more people to use the RFA system. I think its absurdly interesting and entertaining.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, because it’s largely new and still pretty rarely used. I’ll take a glance at who might be available and in a crunch (I dunno, Clowe?), but it probably has to be a name that jumps out at me for the Ducks to be a contender.

It’s still a tool that it strikes me that rich teams should be utilizing (those that intend on spending to the cap perpetually), but a lot depends on the player and on the vulnerable team that’s salary-stuffed. Not sure it’s in the cards for Anaheim this summer.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, I don’t think its necessarily a tool for rich teams. Maybe if everyone were using it, it would be a thing where the richest teams won, but as it currently is, a lot of teams just don’t want to break the gentleman’s agreement, I think. Especially with the cap crunch going on for teams like DET and SJ, theres no better time to write up a 3M offer sheet that the other team can’t match. Its essentially trading a couple draft picks for a known quantity, with your own choice of dollars and term. Plus, since RFA is only available to younger players, anyone acquired through such a means is going to be a good young and growing part of the team too.

if you want to take a look at it, I had this post at Mirtle’s a few months ago.

The specific numbers of what the price tiers are for RFA’s are a little different now that we know what the cap is, but they’re a decent guess. I also put a list of significant RFA’s in there, but a couple of them have been released or resigned already.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sbisa isn’t the next Pronger — that’s not his style — but he was an NHL-ready defenceman at 18 who was sent back to junior for cap reasons. Those guys don’t grow on trees.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there)

by Doogie2K on Jun 30, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn’t Pronger play against the other team’s top guys, while Scott played against everyone else? I still think that Pronger-O’Donnell pairing is one of the best defensive duos I’ve ever seen.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jun 29, 2009 12:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

A lot of times, yeah, but I think it got cycled quite a bit — it wasn’t nearly as carefully matched as the forwards were, I’d say. And yeah, Pronger-O’D was pretty damn money.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i always thought pronger under performed here..and thought his best year was with the oil…why didnt we get that pronger who scored at will on the PP? but your numbers might be proving me wrong..

i actually picked pronger in the poll till i read the article..so now im on the fence..the better without pronger argument is and intresting one..and might make me lean the other way now

sorry to see him go for sure..but like u said “keeping the band together” i know wasnt the answer unless pronger was edmonton oil pronger which hes never been with us..probally becuase of scotty

also if and i hope we do sign frankie..its possbile we that high scoring frankie that we saw that one year…(hey im a glasses half full kinda guy)..and lupul did well with us….i heard hes inconsistant…so maybe with an ass kicker like RC he blossums further…

we shall c…i think murray did what he had to do…im more concerned long term..when scotty retires…who would be our #1 D man? frankie? this new guy from philly? i dont think whitney has the chops for it…that kinda scare me a little bit…o and i hope they sign whiz long term..a frankie like player

I wanna throw up on your new shoes

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 29, 2009 12:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i always thought pronger under performed here..and thought his best year was with the oil

The fact that the 2007 Cup sits on Anaheim’s mantle and not Detroit’s (LOL OTTAWA) would like to speak with you, Spade.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 29, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

…and lupul did well with us….i heard hes inconsistant…so maybe with an ass kicker like RC he blossums further…

Yeah, I’ll be taking a look at Lupul a bit later this week. Haven’t even looked too much at what he’s been up to just yet — I think 50 points last year is about all I know.

Still, he played one year under Carlyle pre-Pronger and had some decent numbers, but he was under $1M back then. Should be interesting.

..when scotty retires…who would be our #1 D man? frankie? this new guy from philly? i dont think whitney has the chops for it…that kinda scare me a little bit…o and i hope they sign whiz long term..a frankie like player

It’s a valid concern, and it could be nobody from your list of names. Still, at this point, I’m tending to say “if scotty retires” instead of “when scotty retires”. You know, old habits.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we added some skill..i think we needed that…so now u got two snipers on the 2nd line

we just need a halfway decent guy that can pass..doesnt even have to score…but still play defense as teemu and lupul probally wont …maybe rucchin can be resurected..marchant is a possibilty..hmm

I wanna throw up on your new shoes

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 29, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m sort of with you on the needs, but I dunno — I have trouble picturing Selanne and Lupul playing together at even-strength. It could happen, but I’d almost be more inclined to put one on the 2nd and one on the 3rd.

Marchant – Lupul – Brown would work for me as a 3rd, for example. But I’m decidedly not an NHL coach.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I voted for Needavacation because he won some huge games for us in the 07 playoffs. I am sure that’s why he got the Conn as well.

Bigger question now is:
What the fuck do I do with a Ducks – Pronger jersey. Thing has no purpose now, and zero re-sale value.

by Mike in OC on Jun 29, 2009 7:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What the fuck do I do with a Ducks – Pronger jersey.

That one’s tough. You may be stuck waiting on a return from the Journeyman Sean Pronger.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll take it off your hands. =P

I’d never turn down a Ducks jersey, regardless of the name on the back of it. It’s about the logo on the front to me.

by JasonF on Jun 29, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s about the logo on the front to me.

Which is why I still own more Mighty Ducks of Anaheim items than Anaheim Ducks items. I miss the days back when our sweater did have a logo on it, even if it was Disney.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 29, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How big of an impact will this have?

Seems to me ANA has flourished with a ho-hum offense because the defense prevented so many GAA, the team still had a positive goal differential. Seems highly likely to me that the defense will slip and ANA is going to need to add more offense just to tread water.

by The Falconer on Jun 30, 2009 12:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, that seemingly is the plan. Last year the offense was pretty decent — much better than the hangover year which much more resembles your take. Add in Lupul, some other acquisition, and hope for the best. Also it’s a bit early to say what sort of defense the Ducks will have — I think I only saw Sbisa play one game, and the immediate future of Beauchemin is up in the air.

In the playoffs the offense disappeared somewhat, but I’m not going to read too much into that. An 82-game regular season is played against more teams than the San Jose Sharks and the Detroit Red Wings.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 30, 2009 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea im optomistic…cuz ryan is only gonna get better and whiz seems to be a player

and so far murray seems to be a smart man..i think hell make pickup somewhere

as far as the jersy conversation i was debating who to get..i think im getting the one with my own last name on it..or “he hate me”…with all this movement too risky to buy one with a players name on it

I wanna throw up on your new shoes

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 30, 2009 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

with all this movement too risky to buy one with a players name on it

Yeah, no kidding. I guess at this point Getzlaf and Lupul look safe, probably Sbisa’s not going anywhere.

But heck, maybe you should just get that Pronger jersey off of Mike. At least then the player has already left — no worries about waiting for that day in the indeterminate future.

Either that or get a “SLEEK” jersey. I don’t suppose I’m switching teams anytime foreseeable.

http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Jun 30, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Either that or get a "SLEEK" jersey

Do It., make sure it’s green.

by Mike in OC on Jun 30, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

does it come with a bottle of jack..and the sudden ability to sing?

might be worth a buy..

good idea to make a green ducks the red sox wear green caps for st. pattys..so its been done before sorta..

I wanna throw up on your new shoes

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 30, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does It Matter

They both kicked the Sharks butt around for years..I am sure Pronger will miss the skirt wearing Sharks..6’4" players who play like they are 4’6"..

Enjoy the east, glad your out of the west..Now the fishies don’t have to look over their shoulders when playing the Ducks..

by The Sear on Jun 30, 2009 9:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ll go with my eyes over the spreadsheet. I think there’s something wonky about Pronger’s numbers, maybe a strength of opposition thing, although you’ll notice a lot of that plus was in 2007. At times he was a pylon over the past season, although that long reach covers up a lot for the lack of mobility and a Wings friend of mine said he felt more frustrated when Chris was on the ice.

In any case, he was a big part of the success we had over the last three years, and I actually grew to appreciate him more as a human being, bad temper and all. He seemed to be involved in every P.R. event the team had unlike our recluse captain (which is fine, that’s just how Scotty is, but I appreciate Pronger’s participation nonetheless), and he gave us that priceless sit-down with Snoop, coming across as amiably goofy and whiter than anyone could have imagined. I wish Elbows luck wherever he goes.

by Snap Wilson on Jun 30, 2009 4:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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Should The Colorado Avalanche Be Worried?

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Managers

Earl_sleek2_small Earl Sleek

Dinoridertrexarmored_small RudyKelly

Awkwardmarleau_small Mike Chen

Editors

San2_small Cheechew

Shark_hat_small pj48

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