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Sharks Gameday: Wherefore Art Thou, Marleau?

Hey, where are you going? I need to talk to you.

Jed Jacobsohn - Getty Images

Hey, where are you going? I need to talk to you.




Warning: The following post contains graphic depictions of hockey statistics and gratuitous Excel graphs. This post is not intended for pregnant women, the elderly, small children, or those with normal lives. Reader discretion is advised.

Hey, Patrick Marleau, what is your deal?

Star-divide

The curse is over, that much is clear. The Sharks got their win, Joe Pavelski is America's greatest hero, and we have a real series on our hand, devoid of strange bounces or bad mojo. The next couple of games are likely to see the Sharks getting the majority of the scoring chances, which seems to be the natural state of the games between these two teams. Evgeni Nabokov has shown he can definitely hold down the fort when the Avalanche get their chances and guys like Pavelski, Clowe, and Boyle are clearly kicking ass - so the series looks good for the Sharks. Woo!

With our "happy happy joy joy" feelings established, we shouldn't be blind to the issues that do exist - and some players just aren't performing at the level we would expect them to. Joe Thornton is normally the one to suffer the brunt of the "choker" label, but anyone who has watched the last few games has seen that Joe has been a strong presence on the ice and has had some great chances, even if he isn't putting up a ton of points. No one could fairly accuse Thornton of under-performing so far.

Our boy Patrick Marleau, however, is having some real troubles. He's visibly struggling, he's missing the net, he's fanning on the puck, and he's just not playing like he has been all year - and this isn't the first post-season something like this has happened. What's up, Patty?

Let's look at some real numbers (in graph form!) so we know what we are talking about here.

CLAIM: Patrick Marleau isn't "clutch" and consistently under-performs in the playoffs.

DATA: First I took Patrick Marleau's average points-per-game for each regular season he has been in the league* and compared them to his playoff points-per-game.

Marleau_points_per_game_graph_medium

Pretty slick graph, huh?  All sorts of colors and shit - but what does it mean?

Right away we can say it isn't really fair to label Marleau as either a playoff star or dud - he fluctuates wildly. 01-02 and 05-06 were seasons in which his playoff production was a significant improvement over his regular season numbers, but we haven't seen anything close to that since.

In 06-07, Marleau's playoff numbers were roughly half of his regular season numbers. In 07-08 his scoring stayed consistent into the post-season. Last year and so far this year, Marleau's playoff production is a shadow of his regular season scoring.

However, there is a lot more that needs to be taken into account before we apply the dreaded "choker" label. First, how does Marleau stack up against other players? His regular season points per game for these seasons is 0.73, and for the playoffs it's 0.66 - is this kind of drop in scoring common?

Look out! Another graph is coming for you!

Points_comparison_players_medium

You can't say I didn't warn you about the graphs.

Looking at this, we can see that Marleau's minor playoff drop-off is not really notable, compared to some other well-known players (all suggested by Rudy, so part of the blame for this is on him). It seems typical for a player's regular season numbers to be slightly higher than their playoff totals (except for Claude Lemeuix, who I guess really did do better in the playoffs than the regular season), and Marleau's numbers aren't extraordinary one way or the other. I don't really see what's notable about his performance at all -

Last_few_years_comparison_medium

Oh - oh I see. I'm sorry, I didn't realize how serious it was. I shouldn't have made jokes...this isn't a laughing matter.

Damn, now we're on to something. If we narrow Marleau's numbers down to just the previous four seasons, his playoff production is WELL below his regular season numbers - he now has the largest disparity of anyone on our chart. It seems like the Shark fans who have been calling-out Patty for some weak playoffs in recent years may be on to something.

However, there's one more relevant piece of data on this question - how many goals the TEAM scored as a whole. If Marleau's points-per-game drop individually while the rest of the team continues to score, then that's a black mark on him - but if the team as a whole isn't scoring as much in the post-season, then we would expect Marleau's numbers to be lower.

Here's a graph of the percentage of the team's goals that involved Marleau in either a goal or an assist, broken down into regular-season and playoffs.

Marleau_percentage_graph_medium

Holy crap, that's interesting, huh? No, really, it is. Seriously - don't leave.

Wow, check out Marleau's run from 01 through 06! Each year he was much more involved in the scoring in the post-season than the regular season - he's Mr. Clutch!

Now let's look specifically at the past few seasons. In 06-07 Marleau had a steep drop-off in points in the post-season (remember our first graph, so very long ago?), but that didn't translate to an equally-severe drop off in his participation in team goals. In other words, Marleau scored fewer points but so did the entire team - he wasn't dramatically weaker in the playoffs. In 07-08, the season Marleau's point production stayed the same into the post-season, his percentage involvement in team scoring was actually slightly higher - meaning he kept scoring at his normal pace when the rest of the team couldn't.

08-09 is the most interesting year to look at for me, and I think it really underscores the importance of this particular statistic. Marleau's point production was cut nearly in half in the playoffs that year, but he still contributed to about the same number of the team's total goals. The team as a whole struggled - not Marleau in particular.

This year something has definitely gone wonky with Patrick - take another look at the chart. So far this post-season, Marleau's contribution to the team goal's has taken the BIGGEST DROP-OFF of his career. Granted, it's only been four games, but what the fuck is that about? He performed better in playoffs in which we later learned he was seriously handicapped by injuries.

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually learn that Patrick is nursing a serious injury - if you pay attention to his play, he just doesn't look like the same player he was in the regular season. And labels like "soft" or "choker" don't tell us the true story - this post-season so far has been an anomaly, something uncharacteristically bad for our boy Marleau.

It's natural that fans and media would look to Marleau for answers when the team has post-season struggles, since he has been one of the most talented players on the Sharks for many years now. I hope our adventure through the world of statistics will help everyone keep his performance in perspective - and make everyone think twice before applying labels that might make him cry.

 

NOW LEAVING GRAPHISTAN

A quick note about game four - did anyone else who happened to be watching the CBC feed notice this bit of hilarious racism from their play-by-play guy? He was talking about a play, and referred to "Devin Setoguchi" leading the rush, and then corrected himself, saying, "I'm sorry, I mean Brandon Yip, not Setoguchi."

Dude - they're NOT EVEN WEARING THE SAME COLOR JERSEYS. I'm sure all right wings look alike to you, huh?

Tonight's game will be intense and fun, and I wish it were starting right now.

Prediction: 2-0 Sharks, with goals by Marleau and Pavelski.

 

* = Astute observers may notice that I left out the 02-03 season. As all good Sharks fans know, this is because this season didn't actually occur - it's only an urban legend used to scare children.

 

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Comments

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Warning: The following post contains graphic depictions of hockey statistics and gratuitous Excel graphs. This post is not intended for pregnant women, the elderly, small children, or those with normal lives AND SPADE. Reader discretion is advised.

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 7:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Right up my alley, though four games is awfully thin. As are a lot of playoff years — fluctuation there probably happens for everybody like crazy.

But with those caveats, good data digging. All clear and clean.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

how bout a chart on much tissue paper sharks fans go thru every year…wonder if that fluctuates

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nope. Past performance dictates that it’s remained rather constant.

This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die! Remember this day, men, for it will be yours for all time.

by ZeroIndulgence on Apr 22, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

though four games is awfully thin

I agree. Let’s not leave him at the pound just yet.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Apr 22, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

No one could fairly accuse Thornton of under-performing so far

I could…should expect more from that guy

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 7:52 AM PDT reply actions  

So Marleau started declining in 05, huh? That’s the same year Thornton came on the scene. Clearly they’re up all night playing Rampage* in their room and are too tired for the game.

I mean, either that or it’s just normal fluctuations in play that people take way too seriously because it’s the playoffs.

*Marleau always giggles when the monsters turn back into naked humans.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Apr 22, 2010 8:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Marleau always giggles when the monsters turn back into naked humans.

hahaha

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

I mean, either that or it’s just normal fluctuations in play that people take way too seriously because it’s the playoffs.

Yeah, I think that’s the best conclusion to be drawn from all those graphs.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

i thought the orange and teal coloring to the graphs was cute

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks buddy.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

compared to some other well-known players (all suggested by Rudy, so part of the blame for this is on him)

Picking on Selanne again? His playoff points-per-game is way skewed in that he’s played 84 postseason games past the age of 30 compared to only 21 postseason games played as an under-30-year-old. That’s a 4-to-1 ratio, which obviously wasn’t mirrored in his regular season career.

Selanne may one day be a good Kovalchuk comparable, but doesn’t fit well with this Marleau storyline.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 8:21 AM PDT reply actions  

I’m tired of statistics for now, but can you think of other players that would be fair Selanne comparisons? What are some other players who made the playoffs way more often later in their careers?

Marleau’s got good data since he’s made the playoffs every since season he’s been in the league, baring the 02-03 season that never really happened.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

(scans Kings roster)

Alexander Frolov, maybe?

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hahaha good one:

Career playoff games: 4
Career playoff points: 3

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

What would Selanne’s numbers look like if you started the first year he made the playoffs?

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Apr 22, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Be back in five minutes.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

He played six games his rookie year with Winnipeg — but most of his productive years were maxed at 82 games.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well then he just didn’t have what it took to carry his team!

/Skip Bayless

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Apr 22, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here’s the basic splits of Teemu’s playoff career:

6 games w/Jets rookie year: 1.00 pts/gm
15 gms w/Ducks (97, 99): 0.93 pts/gm
28 gms w/Sharks and Avs: 0.46 pts/gm
56 gms w/Ducks post-lockout: 0.70 pts/gm

So 53% of his postseason GP came after the age of 35, even.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It may be that some dudes like Selanne and Frolov have specific reasons it’s difficult to properly judge their playoff performance.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Disregarding his rookie season, starting the count in 96-97 when the Ducks began to make the playoffs more often than not:

Teemu’s regular season points per game – 0.99
Teemu’s playoff points per game – 0.66

Doesn’t prove anything, but it’s a fairer comparison.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

the clutch goal against the wings and hasek that IMO propelled us to the Finals….though is worth the low playoff production…it may have been served on a platter but he executed…Ill take selanne over mr awkward any day

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Marleau has scored clutch goals as well in specific series – if that’s your measure than clearly Pavelski is better than either of them.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh stop it. Next you’ll be telling us Pavelski is better than Stastny.

You so crazy.

by GOOLIAN on Apr 22, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, there’s plenty of sentimentality in that statement. But if you offered me a 35-yr-old Teemu vs. a 35-year-old Marleau, then my brain would agree, too.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well yeah, because Selanne’s a better player. No one’s saying he’s not. I’m saying that Selanne is a good player that, over the years, was unlucky in the playoffs. If he played a thousand more games he’d probably do just as well as he does in the regular season. Not everyone is going to be exactly the same, there are going to be outliers like Selanne, Thornton, Tkachuk, and Claude Lemieux. It’s not a big deal unless you actually believe in things like clutch and “giving it 110%” and all that bullshit coaches spew.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Apr 22, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure, but the reason why his numbers are skewed like Thornton’s comes from two different issues: notably that Teemu didn’t play in the postseason much during his prime years. Thornton’s still in them — later we can compare his twilight against Teemu’s; that’d make more sense.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I get what you are saying, since Teemu’s regular season points per game include all of his prime years, while his playoff points per game include mostly his waning seasons. That’s a fair objection.

How do you feel about the numbers only from 96 on? We still see a drop from .99 to .66 per game – I don’t think that’s a big deal, but to play devil’s advocate, what’s your response?

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Let’s start in 2001, to be as fair as possible to Teemu and look at only the period when he played MOST of his playoff games:

2001-2010

Regular season points per game: 0.84
Playoff points per game: 0.64

I think that kind of drop-off is perfectly acceptable, since scoring as a whole usually decreases in the post-season. But it wouldn’t be honest to say there isn’t a drop-off at all for Teemu, or that it isn’t comparable to what we see from other players like Thornton or Marleau.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I called in sick today and I’m still spending hours looking at Excel charts. What the hell is wrong with me?

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

you have earl-i-dus….try singing somthing…u might be surprised u can carry a tune…also u might have a strange craving for jack daniels

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking of which, I won’t be around until the end of tonight’s game — Thursday night is choir night.

So same rules as last game: play nice, commenters, and don’t score into your own net without me, Sharks.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

you are a sick sick child … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

maybe everyone's numbers are skewed

IF a general scoring decrease for the playoffs is given (except, apparently, for Washington so far this year): you might be able then, to normalize any player’s points/game drop from regular-season to post-, to the team ppg drop (or even league ppg drop). maybe all the numbers we’re looking at are

by Carl G on Apr 22, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

forget that last sentence fragment. Where’s that edit button again???

by Carl G on Apr 22, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

sleek has it hidden underneath some Battlestar gallactica DVD’s and is intentionally hiding it from us to torture us

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

hidden edit button and a proofreading is for suckers attitude, bad combination

by Carl G on Apr 22, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even then it’s weird, a bit — still more than half his playoff games are 35+, and still a bulk come from his tough years outside of Anaheim.

I’d be OK comparing the different phases of his career to the postseason numbers that correspond, but even then, the useful part would probably only be usable against 35 year olds on the decline.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Disregarding every year when he missed the playoffs, so that all the numbers are from the same years, he has 1.06 points per game in the regular season against his 0.69 playoff number…

Then again, that’s not really fair either as this way we’re only getting his good seasons from his earlier career as Winnipeg made the playoffs when Teemu scored 132 and Anaheim made it when he scored 107 and 109. Those lofty totals probably had something to do with those not-so-great teams making the postseason in the first place.

All in all, I feel that his relatively weak postseason numbers have a lot to do with the fact that one line teams mostly get shut down in the playoffs.

by Malurous on Apr 22, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

i think the point meg and sharks fans alike are making is thortan and marleau arent REALLY chokers…stats wise they match up with people who arent considered chokers….thats probally true

but gawd dammint if it isnt funny as hell to call them chokers..when there on a team is staked with talent and comically gets dismissed

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

You’ve got a good point there – once the label has been applied, things that aren’t statistically significant get pointed-to as proof of the labels. I guess that’s a good summary of what I’m trying to say.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

i think its appropriate for you to point out for the casual hockey fans who dont know shit…

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

but gawd dammint if it isnt funny as hell to call them chokers

did I mention you suck yet today?

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

no…but go ahead..youve called me worse ;-)

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Let’s have some positivity here, Ang. I’m sure Spade sucks very well.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Apr 22, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

youd be alarmed to hear on sucking I was given the grade “needs improvement”….:-(

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

“Sucks well with others”

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

“Points for citizenship”

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Apr 22, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

It doesn’t matter if its in his prime. If you were talking about how he didn’t score as much in general (regular and post season) then thats a good point, but if he’s scoring a lot in the regular season then not so much in the post season it’s applicable here I think, regardless of age.

by Nut on Apr 22, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

So if Gretzky first made the postseason as a 35-year-old, we should expect that he’d score no differently than if he first made it as a 22-year old?

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, maybe that was the wrong follow-up. Here…

Picture two universes. In one, Selanne makes the playoffs for each of his first five seasons, but then never makes it again. In another, Selanne makes the playoff for only his last five seasons; never made it before.

Why shouldn’t I expect a different postseason-points-per-game from these two scenarios? He had a decline over time in his regular seasons (as happens to everybody); that won’t reflect in his postseason career?

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe I misunderstood Meg’s point, but I thought it was that Selanne’s point total goes down in the post season (similar to Joe Thornton) from his regular season total. If that is the case, it doesn’t matter if Selanne scores 45 points or 215 points, just if his point total drops and by what percentage. So his age is irrelevant, unless you look at his career as a whole and measure ppg (which may have been your point) and I agree, that wouldn’t be fair. It should be within the seasons he made the playoffs.

by Nut on Apr 22, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right — we’re closer than we appear.

The charts in the post just look at career averages — regular season vs. playoffs — and includes a whole career. In Selanne’s case, that’s pretty rough — there’s plenty of prime scoring years that didn’t include a postseason, and thus his postseason results reflect a generally-older Teemu than his regular season stats.

It’s different from Thornton, who has I think made the playoffs pretty much throughout his career — at least the samples for JT are pulling from similar age ranges.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

reading comprehension was never my strong point

by Nut on Apr 22, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, which is why I re-did the numbers in the comments to only look at his later years, when his production in the regular and post-seasons were both down from their heights. That’s when we get a drop from .99 to .66 per game. So there is still a factual drop, even when only looking at the same season rather than his career totals.

That’s more fair than comparing career numbers that encompass his youth to playoff numbers that only cover his later seasons. I think Nut got that, though.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

And definitely there’s a dropoff, but even then I think we’re still skewed a bit — his long postseasons still occur at the end of his career, so there’s probably still more weighting that could be done — somehow I’d like it controlled so that if >50% of his playoffs happen after age 35, then we make it so that >50% of his regular season calculation comes from those same years.

Still, I’d expect a decline, no matter how carefully it’s done — bad teams don’t make the postseason, so there’s fewer gimme points out there.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

What are some other players who made the playoffs way more often later in their careers?

Nobody fits that description more than Yzerman.

and on the 93rd postseason of the National Hockey League, the Slovakian-hockeygod Zeus commanded from high atop Mount Figueroa..."RELEASE THE MEAT TRAIN!" And it was good.

by DodgerBlueBalls on Apr 22, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously Marleau’s not the choker we all make him out to be, but I’ll never forget that time in the 2008 playoffs when he wouldn’t block a Modano shot and it resulted in a goal. Marleau’s a good guy, and I hope his luck and reputation improve.

Here's to all us girls who love hockey...and the men who play it.

by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Apr 22, 2010 8:32 AM PDT reply actions  

But if Marleau stands in the way of the puck, it might hit him! That would hurt!

This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die! Remember this day, men, for it will be yours for all time.

by ZeroIndulgence on Apr 22, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

tell him to stop it with his unibrow

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe if he looks at the puck awkwardly enough, it’ll slowly back away and go hide somewhere else…

This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die! Remember this day, men, for it will be yours for all time.

by ZeroIndulgence on Apr 22, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

hahaha…thats not out of the realm of possibility

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

preferably

in the Haus of Anderson yes?

"God save us all." - FTF Staff

by mssjsclowie29 on Apr 22, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here is an updated Marleau picture he just had taken.

Let's go Ducks.

by deb d on Apr 22, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Groucho Marleau

Dammit, I've run out of nipple glue! Always at the worst times!

by brokenyard on Apr 22, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

GO SHARKS!

I can’t wait for tonight’s game…this day will drag on forever until then. DROP THE PUCK ALREADY! :D

"God save us all." - FTF Staff

by mssjsclowie29 on Apr 22, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Whoa…just noticed that if you search for specific players on NHL.com to look at their stats, each one has his own Facebook “like” button. Holy shit, facebook’s tentacles are everywhere!

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh and 41 people "like" Patrick Marleau, but only 3 "like" Claude Lemieux. Good.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Whoa, Claude Lemieux has three parents? Weird.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

He probably liked himself with his own account

Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding

by Kevin Sellathamby on Apr 22, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hahaha is that even possible?!

by AppleSweetRose on Apr 22, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m assuming the “Like” is the same as Fan Pages. I’ve given up on trying to keep up with Facebook, it won’t stop changing

Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding

by Kevin Sellathamby on Apr 22, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I imagine the three are Mama Lemiuex, Papa Lemiuex and Kris Draper

and on the 93rd postseason of the National Hockey League, the Slovakian-hockeygod Zeus commanded from high atop Mount Figueroa..."RELEASE THE MEAT TRAIN!" And it was good.

by DodgerBlueBalls on Apr 22, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Side note, but I was amused to see Dan Boyle’s fan numbers jump after game 3. Tough crowd on Facebook.

by GOOLIAN on Apr 22, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn’t know that, but I’ll sure be checking that out, haha.
Oh and great job on the graphs.

by AppleSweetRose on Apr 22, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait

You’re telling me Marleau is playing this series?

That’s highly unpossible, I would have noticed something like that.

"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda

by Evilducks on Apr 22, 2010 10:15 AM PDT reply actions  

hehe

2009-2010 Anaheim Ducks.."Hey at least its not crack!!"

SIR SPADE-IT-CUS!!! crusader against thy heathen spelling nazi's.... defender of people who are commenting at work and dont have the time to spell/grammer check!!!

"Taste thy blade scoundrel..thou shall bleed out your arse"!!

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 22, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Last season, Marleau played the last few weeks and the first round with a MCL sprain. He still scored more than the rest of the team.

I thought something didn’t seem quite right since the Olympics. He’s still good on the PK but his puckhandling hasn’t been quite the same, which makes me think it’s the dreaded “upper body” injury.

Still, I think if Joe and Patty have a big game tonight, we’ll all forget about nasty labels and think happy thoughts. Did everyone do their good deed of POSITIVITY today?

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

By the way, anyone notice that Patty’s on the Selke ballot for Adam Proteau (Hockey News) and our pal Wyshynski?

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Goodbye, New Jersey

Dammit, I've run out of nipple glue! Always at the worst times!

by brokenyard on Apr 22, 2010 6:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Ottawa’s in bad shape, too. Oh well, so much for our historical cup finals opponents.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh wait, drama!

OK, I’m off until late in the Sharks’ game. Good luck, somebody!

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hella drama! (Yes, hella)

Ottawa scores the upset game winner early in OT, but it’s ruled a kick.

Dammit, I've run out of nipple glue! Always at the worst times!

by brokenyard on Apr 22, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jeeze these are the greatest playoffs ever.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

GO SHARKS!

did I say that here already? doesnt’ matter … can’t say it enough … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 7:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Just got home

Why the hell is it still Pens-Sens? Just because CBC likes to kiss Sidney’s ass doesn’t mean I have to…

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 7:53 PM PDT reply actions  

It’s awful. Currently there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to see the Sharks game if you’re not in the area.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

that was like last night when I wanted to see the Kings / Canucks game but they were too busy showing the Buf / Bos game in OT … frustrating as all hell … even links online that said Kings / Canucks were tuned into the other game

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anything happened yet at The Tank?

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anderson still is being selfish with his net

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

So all 4 West series thru 4 are 2-2

And all East series lopsided… Just like in basketball, West is best…

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 8:04 PM PDT reply actions  

Sharks out-shooting Avs 12-2 at the end of the first…you’re doing it right, guys, just keep it up!

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:13 PM PDT reply actions  

POSITIVITY! I am SO ready to yell “SUCK MY DICK!”

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

good end to end action so far....

avs hit the post, a couple of times joe should’ve driven to the net, but settles for the pass

by yinhole on Apr 22, 2010 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marleau with a nice pass leading to a goal…he must have read this post.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:44 PM PDT reply actions  

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! GO SHARKS!

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:49 PM PDT reply actions  

That was like watching a vancuver pk…

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 8:49 PM PDT reply actions  

Scoring chances 18-4 Sharks with 5 minutes left in the 2nd. Sharks up 2-0!

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:59 PM PDT reply actions  

Correction. 3-0.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

3-0!!!! doesn’t that sound good … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Back to this world war II shit on the Military Channel. I hate watching games when only one team shows up. Well save for rare games like the ducks cup winner. I blame the overtime games I keep watching..

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Both sides definitely showed up for WWII.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

shit yeah. Everyone was dying. Doesn’t help that the heaviest piece of armor they wore didn’t stop shit though..

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, I go out for a little bit

And it’s 3-0? What kind of bizarro world is this?

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 9:07 PM PDT reply actions  

This is the series as it should be.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree. They aren’t half the team the Ducks were last season, and Joe showed up to play. No not Thorton.

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

anderson sucks balls right now. He’s channeling Cloutier

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

i love that intense look on hannan’s face. that was some serious shit. clowe wants some of that action.

by yinhole on Apr 22, 2010 9:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Clowe

wants to kill everyone right now…that was amazing I haven’t seen that Clowe probably in a year….

"God save us all." - FTF Staff

by mssjsclowie29 on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't ever expect Thornton to show up when you need him

No offense, Sharks fan… There’s a reason Boston flopped all those years ago…

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 9:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Because they had Joe Thornton and surrounded him with a shitty team?

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hear that works the same way as surrounding him with a good one.

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm fairly certain they didn't have any players

That’s why we shipped them an AHL team over for Joe

"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda

by Evilducks on Apr 22, 2010 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

You don’t get a 1st seed with Joe Thornton and shit…

by Malurous on Apr 23, 2010 4:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

SUCK MY DICK!!!!!!!! x3

Late to the party…was eating my burrito during the second. :)

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 PM PDT reply actions  

I bet you were.

Meg i think Chen just re-cursed your asses. Do your thing.

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Once the curse has been lifted, it can’t be re-applied as long as you keep positive, which is clearly what is happening. It’s simple physics.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

No this is some Chen-burrito hybrid curse. Physics need not apply.

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even the mighty burrito is bound by the laws of physics.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

No curse. It’s all POSITIVITY! And a damn good burrito.

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Since this game is over

Back to worrying about the Kings… Will TM scratch OD please?

OD absolutely stunk it up yesterday…

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 9:30 PM PDT reply actions  

What gives?

The Sharks are winning. That’s weird.

Dammit, I've run out of nipple glue! Always at the worst times!

by brokenyard on Apr 22, 2010 9:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Everyone knows they can’t make it past the second round. the first is only a problem…well you know..

by Steven Hida on Apr 22, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

But I want them to fail now!

Dammit, I've run out of nipple glue! Always at the worst times!

by brokenyard on Apr 23, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

God damn do I love the San Jose Sharks.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:45 PM PDT reply actions  

So Meg, would we say that Patty’s looking more himself tonight?

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

He’s definitely on the right track. I’m happy with his play tonight.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, I’d say he’s officially back.

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

There we go. Even better.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

SUCK MY DICK…for a pizza!

by Mike Chen on Apr 22, 2010 9:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Yup. That’s right.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 10:05 PM PDT reply actions  

So, what did I miss? :)

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 10:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Sounds like there wasn’t even any drama. Good thing I missed it, then, I guess.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

San Jose is full of cheer tonight … :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Apr 22, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

They’re guaranteed to play more games than last year — makes sense.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Postgame is up – I’ll be in there gloating.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 22, 2010 10:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm not watching the game on account of it being over

Has Thornton gotten a point yet? Anything positive from him at all?

"Piss on the lamb, piss on Mary and Piss on You!"

by angelofdeath on Apr 22, 2010 10:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Boxscore is here — looks like JT went pointless.

Was on the ice for the fifth goal on the power play — watched the rest from the bench, it seems.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 22, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thornton is to blame just as much

Although I agree with your assertion that Patty has been inadequate in games 1 – 4, so has Joe Thornton. They’ve both failed to put up any offensive numbers, therefore putting more pressure on the second and third lines. Luckily for them, both of those lines have produced this playoff year, unlike last.

But now that Marleau had a goal and an assist in game 5, I think you can back off, and since it appears that SJ will be moving on, let’s not write Patty off yet, as he may do better in the second round with different defensive matchups.

I love Joe Thornton because of his tremendous passing skills, but he lacks intensity and the ability to raise his game in the playoffs. Just ask anyone who watched him flame out in the playoffs each and every year in Boston. For a guy with his size and strength, SJ sure could have used him in other ways this series, like planting his big butt in front of the net and/or sticking up for some of his teamates by droping the gloves with McCloud or another of Colorado’s more aggressive players. That would have done a lot to show his mates that he is willing to do whatever is required to help the team win.

That said, I do see him, Patty and Heater getting their games going in round 2 or SJ will be bounced out. Good news is that the other players, lines 2 – 4 are dominating, so if HTML can pull their heads out, we stand a great chance of going deep into the playoffs, perhaps the conference finals. I know, it’s a big if, because we will have to find a way to beat either Detroit or Chicago in a 7 game series. It will take all 4 lines contributing.

by 1 and done on Apr 23, 2010 8:04 AM PDT reply actions  

I think it makes sense for Thornton’s career numbers to be slightly higher in the regular season than the playoffs (as they are) since in the playoffs you are playing against higher-caliber teams and they have the time to focus on shutting down one specific player or line.

I feel like Thornton is really contributing to this series in a way that isn’t showing up on the scoreboard, but not in some nebulous “intangible” way – when he’s out there he’s spending a lot of time in the offensive zone, making the Avalanche D and forwards work hard. So far they’ve been able to keep him from getting a goal, but he still has some assists. Regardless, I think it’s Thornton’s work that is allowing guys like Pavelski to shine – the Avalanche are working hard to contain Big Joe, and don’t have much left to shut-down the other lines.

Nobody in the Sharks organization has called out Thornton for failing to contribute. McLellan thinks he is doing fine, and the coach isn’t afraid to speak publicly if he feels it’s necessary.

The curse shall be ended.
Battle of California

by Megalodon on Apr 23, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

In the Ducks’ cup year, I felt similarly about the Selanne-McDonald-Kunitz trio. They were contributing, but more importantly they were making sure that Getzlaf-Perry-Penner never had to see the top shutdown unit (well, until the SCF when Ottawa finally caught on, though too late).

Teemu had an underwhelming five goals that postseason, if I recall correctly, tied with Rob Niedermayer. But the goals were all huge, and even his ability to be targeted off the scoresheet was a big contribution to the team’s success.

My nostalgic perspective, anyways.

"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/

by Earl Sleek on Apr 23, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nah, he’s just choking like he always is in the playoffs.

(Sorry, I have no choice but to do this, it’s my role.)

by Malurous on Apr 23, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

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As you all know The Ducks blue line is suffering pretty badly.  Wiz being banished to the Islanders really doesn't help much.  What I'm about to suggest is crazy, probably not legal, and absolutely absurd.  But desperate times call for desperate measures.   

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